One of the key challenges any growing business faces is that of company culture. When it’s just a founder, a designer and a couple of developers in a single room, it’s easy to listen to new ideas, keep everyone informed about the day-to-day, hour-to-hour, minute-to-minute goings-on and address everyone’s gripes.

But just how do keep your employees engaged when you’re transitioning from a small business to a medium/large one? We spoke to Chieu Cao, co-founder of Perkbox, to find out more.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT PERKBOX?

Perkbox is an employee experience platform, we believe we need to look at the employee holistically. Ultimately, we’re a tech company, a SaaS business trying to solve a problem using technology.

Perkbox actually started as a completely different company. Back in 2011, we launched Huddlebuy, going on to pivot three times before finally rebranding as Perkbox back in 2015.

It wasn’t easy, we made mistakes and at one point almost ran out of money. But, now we employ over 250 people with a revenue of over £50m last year.

SO, PERKBOX IS A TOOL FOR EMPLOYERS TO REWARD THEIR STAFF?

To truly motivate your staff you need to understand their work life as well as their personal life. We talk about mental well-being challenges along those lines. It’s rooted in personal life as well as work life. We can’t just isolate the two.

Historically, we had perks and benefits only but now we have launched other products like Perkbox Insights, Perkbox Recognition and Perkbox Medical that sit alongside our traditional perks and benefit offerings on the platform in order to better cater for the physical, emotional and financial wellbeing of employees.

AND THIS IS AN ESSENTIAL INGREDIENT FOR BUSINESS SUCCESS?

Great businesses are built on great people. And how do you maintain great people? You focus on culture.

We talk a lot about mission and company values, but at Perkbox I try and influence the 12 or so directors because they are the people who interpret those missions and values. That’s my job, to make sure they fully understand that.

CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT ONE SUCH VALUE AT YOUR COMPANY?

The way I describe values is how we treat each other. So, one value at Perkbox is “zero fear”, for example. It’s a value that’s all about being able to talk comfortably about hard things in difficult situations. It’s what I call a key factor to creating that sense of psychological safety amongst your employees.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN EXACTLY BY PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY?

It’s this notion of creating an environment where people can be themselves. They can talk about things that are uncomfortable in the knowledge that everyone is in the same boat, and you’re not ridiculed for what you say because we believe in you. No-one is going to hold it against you.

AND WHAT ABOUT SOME OF THE MORE OVER-ARCHING CONCEPTS?

It’s all about being highly aligned and loosely coupled when talking about decision making. It means that the vision is clear with everyone, everyone is aligned with it and loosely coupled with how you go about achieving that mission.

At Perkbox we use Lattice, an OKR management system, that helps everyone see what each other is doing, and how it adds up to the company mission. This is also a great way of showing transparency across an organisation.

SPEAKING AS A BRIT, I THINK THAT’S A KEY DIFFERENCE WITH THE BRITISH PSYCHE, IN THAT WE’RE NOT THE BEST AT HAVING THOSE DIFFICULT FEEDBACK CONVERSATIONS.

That’s a cultural thing, I’m American so I’m more used to saying, “get out of the way because you’re in the way”.

If you allow yourself to look bad and be human, it makes it easier for everybody else, especially your (Senior Leadership Team) SLT because they bring with them a lot of cultural baggage. It’s easier with the junior hires because they don’t know any different.

HOW DO YOU BUILD A TEAM THAT’S BOTH PRODUCTIVE AND CREATIVE?

It’s really simple. You lead and empower and get right out of the way. For five years I did everything and became a generalist across marketing. Then I had to actively take a step back.

I knew I could make a better decision, but I need the second in command to start leading and becoming more of a leader in these situations. Initially, it was hard for me to move away, but it’s easier now.

WHICH IS WHERE THE REWARD SYSTEM COMES BACK INTO PLAY?

Absolutely. OKRs make sure everyone knows exactly what they’re doing and everything is clear. Monitor what people are trying to do in a transparent way so they can be rewarded for achieving their goals.

The worst thing is to have worked hard and not be noticed because you don’t have a system in place to monitor that. So OKRs and these other tools are important.

IT REQUIRES A LOT OF TRUST THOUGH, HOW ARE YOU AT PLACING YOUR TRUST IN OTHER PEOPLE?

I’m going to use an analogy here, in that trust is like managing a bank account. Over time, you build up trust with those around you with little credits, and if you make a mistake or say something bad then it’s reduced.

From my experience, you can lose someone’s trust, but I don’t think you lose 100 per cent overnight unless it’s disastrous. So, you need to build it up again. It’s built over time. You also build trust by being transparent.

IS TRANSPARENCY A KEY ELEMENT OF HOW YOU MANAGE YOUR BUSINESS?

I think that being transparent and being open is the best way of working. Being authentic means that you show yourself in all the different ways you can be.

This is especially important when you start growing into a larger business because you become more of a symbol. People only see glimpses of you, and they’ll take that as who you are. You must be careful, if you’re not being yourself you get caught out.

DO YOU HAVE ANY TIPS ON IMPROVING COMPANY TRANSPARENCY?

When we have our all-hands we have big screens, which we sit in front of and encourage people to send their messages. The questions just pop up in real time, unfiltered. People just loved it, they couldn’t believe that we were brave enough to have random questions pop up.

That act alone demonstrated that we are open, honest and have nothing to hide.

HOW DO YOU THINK BUSINESS IS CHANGING?

From my point of view, when looking at reward and recognition, I think it’s important to be rewarding employees at a pace and a time that’s relevant for them. Monthly or annual awards aren’t good enough for millennials, so you have to upgrade your management abilities.

We believe that everything needs to be employee-centric, so make time for employees, stop everything and do a shout out. It’s also interesting that some people like public recognition, others like private ways of being recognised, you need to understand your staff.

ARE THERE OTHER WAYS YOU REWARD YOUR STAFF?

There are always decisions that can be made on a legal basis or common sense. For example, when someone leaves their contract, they might get a month’s pay or a month’s notice, but we’ll give them a bit more, even though legally we’re not obliged to.

Or holidays, we used to have 25 days, now it’s unlimited because we trust our employees. And that really affects the culture, people see you as a human being making sensible decisions. For me, it comes down to leadership vs. management.

WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LEADERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT?

By definition, leaders have followers, whereas managers have tasks. They are very different roles. A lot of people confuse the two. When you hire people you really need to tease out the difference because most people are managers but not great leaders.

It’s hard to be a great leader. It takes time and dedication.

ARE YOU A LEADER OR A MANAGER?

I think naturally, I’m more of a leader than a manager. I’m a blue-sky thinker and I would rather have people run things that are important to the business and make sure they run on time. I know where my limits are. I can talk and inspire people, get people dreaming big. And so that’s what I gravitate towards.

Thanks so much for your time Chieu!